The lights are dim, but the energy is bustling.
Around tables they sit, sharing drinks, conversations, Iphone apps… but most importantly – business.
It’s a bit like a scene from the Godfather…
As you approach them, you realize that what they are engaged in is very much a closed club. You’re only cool by association. Unless you get introduced by someone who’s already “in”, you may as well not be there.
They’re congregating as we speak, all around the US, the UK, Canada, Australia, much of Asia, even the Mid East on occasion.
And while overall, they are unassuming, it’s these small groups of businessmen who control EVERYTHING you buy related to online business…
Yes, what I’m describing is the hotel bar outside your average internet marketing conference, and the groups of marketers you find there. And if you are trying to learn online marketing, these are people, and circumstances that you NEED to know about.
Why?
Every product launch you see, these guys are behind it. Every time you whip out your credit card at the keyboard for a “how to” course, these guys are behind it.
It’s here that they sit around deciding who’s going to mail their list about what, (before it’s even launched) which upsell is going to lead where, compare sales letter conversion rates, and scheme out how they can get YOU to spend the most possible money for the LEAST possible value.
Sound scary? It kinda is…
For me, it’s everything I hate about this business. Hearing things like:
“People are going to unsubscribe anyway, so why not just send people a sales pitch in every email?”
“I don’t even use XXXX – haha, but I did a product on how to make money with it last year”.
“You’ve got a launch coming up? Cool, I’ll tell my list about it.” (Haven’t seen or tried the product for a second and don’t even care) Or alternatively…
“It converts at 10%? Great, I’ll mail it!”
Those are all things I heard this past week. Eeeeuuurrggghhhhh!! It makes me sick to my stomach.
But that’s how this game works. If you are trying to learn online marketing, that’s what you have to contend with.
The BS is so thick, and you just have to be SO careful with who you trust, and what you buy. Your radar must ALWAYS be on and you have to be extremely connected and focused with what you want to learn, what your desired outcomes are, and maybe most importantly, what your budget is to achieve it. If not, guaranteed you’ll spend far more money on the internet than you make.
—————— Phew, rant over with for now. ——————–
All of that said, there are those very few select individuals who I meet, and they shock me. The diamonds in the rough, the roses growing through the concrete. The people who despite this often disgusting industry we are in, somehow retain their integrity, somehow stay decent people, and still do phenomenally well without the sleeze.
And meeting those people is always worth wading through the douche bags. It’s these people that allow my conscience to survive as a marketer, and inspire me to keep fighting the good fight in this game.
So rather than pure negativity, I thought I’d let this post be a shout out to some of those standup souls who I’ve met recently – to make sure you all know who they are too. They deserve it.
1. I was lucky enough to have a chat in NY with Chris X – you know, DayJobKiller etc? I know how much this guy is into launches, how “in” he is with the guru crew… but no, somehow he’s the nicest guy ever! This is like, Clickbank Millionaire, Adwords uber-guru… He asks about Elysia and I’s engagement, we talk biz for a little, I tell him we’re coming to the UK, and he invites me to meet up with him and their mastermind crew for a beer some time. Just a real dude, you know?
2. In Brisbane, AU while we were back, we met up with super blogger/marketer and fellow Aussie Yaro Starak. Same deal… We talked travel, relationships, a bunch of random stuff, then he takes his afternoon to show us his favorite cafe in Brisbane where he often works. Hardly a word about mailouts, JVs, or how we could “help” each other… A total champion of a guy.
3. Picture this right… We go to meet this guy at this “private membership club” in NYC. The first room we walk into is this enormous lounge area complete with all kinds of super glossy dark leather couches, and bookshelves, with random clusters of evidently super rich people chatting, or working on their computers… the kind of room you’d imagine an old rich dude smoking a pipe in… We go up to meet this guy at the rooftop pool (apparently one of the only in NYC) and the scene is like a rap video… What appear to be models, and rich tanned new yorkers of various kinds huddling around, ordering drinks, sitting in inflatable couches, and so on.
ANYWAY, we meet this guy – someone you probably don’t know, his name’s Jonathan Fields – multiple time published author, highly popular blogger, and about a hundred other awesome things…
Again, first time we’ve met, and we sit and chat like old friends. Despite having every opportunity in the world to be pretentious and snobby, he’s down to earth, open, smiley, friendly, and is as interested in our lives as we are in his. He shouts our lunch, then when we leave he goes “If there’s anything I can do for you guys, let me know”. No, not “will you promote my new launch now”… the exact opposite. Just a genuine, impossibly cool chap.
So yes, it’s true. These rare folk do exist.
If you get a chance, and you’re looking for some people you can trust, check out what these guys get up to at the links I provided. Like I said, it’s the existence of people like this who make the insanity of online business worthwhile.
Otherwise, I hope you found in this post both a wake up call, and some consolation. I’d love to hear your thoughts!
Photos: Godfather: 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brhomnet/2517897563/
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Thanks for both the negative and the positive Andrew.
Anthony
Hi Andrew
Really what you’d expect, but hope against! Of course that’s how they get mega-rich. I recommend the crowd that did “Practical Profits” in Las Vegas two weeks ago, they didn’t pitch anything, and while they weren’t all high earners, they had all made a good business online.
No affiliate links from me, but they were Jason Fladlien, James Jones, Rachel Rofe, and some others who all work together. I trust those guys as well.
andrew,
great post. i’ve never been to one of those events, but i know the sleezy types you are talking about. i would not buy anything from those characters.
tom
atlanta usa
Hey Andrew,
I don’t necessarily buy into the “internet marketing gurus club”……I think that there may be pockets of gurus that do this for big launches but there are plenty of really good folks that kind of do their own thing and make a living giving useful content, making offers and are generally just regular people.
The people that you are referring to are the ones that target the near newbie marketer who doesn’t want to believe the amount of work that is necessary to build a business and doesn’t realize that in this business, you take baby steps to your whatever goal you have, not giant leaps.
I have had a chance to speak with Jonathon. A regular stand up guy who embodies positivity in the field (then again, he is more of a social marketer and that almost has to be a calling card).
Never talked with Yaro or Andrew X though…both of those guys don’t really need the ‘good ole’ boys’ network to make a splash at this point.
People like Michael Masterson, Jimmie Brown, Paul Myers, Josh Spaulding..these guys aren’t super well known to the newbie world but are all good sources of information….and they aren’t going to pummel you with a ton of “offers”.
Anyway, for those of us who have been marketing online for awhile, we know the score…we understand the B.S. associated with it, right?
Andrew I have bought so much from these “Circle Jerk Characters” it is so hard to tell who to trust. I am a member of wordpress goldmine and the people there are pretty trustworthy. some of the most highly touted of the people on the internet are associated with the slimeballs who just want to help you out of your money. Thank you for all you do and your stuff is good. I have found the folks you partner with to be OK! Jen, Colleen, etc.You will like this. http://mjthompson.net/564/the-emperors-new-clothes/ and http://mjthompson.net/556/10-ways-to-tell-if-you-are-a-guru/
Thx for the mini peak that I think many, if not most of us assumed. I’ve been to several in-the-flesh conferences and found only a handful of so called gurus that I’d even let park my car without supervision.
Funny… I’ve removed myself from so many lists yet know that my email is being passed around and added to other lists. What a surprise.
Of course there are those that over deliver and continue to impress in the long term.
For the record I have had very positive experiences without the god-awful daily “last chance! Only 24 left!” emails. No links here… Jeremy Palmer, Dave Kelly, Jay Stockwell, Gauher Chaudhry, James Jones, John Rhodes and the amazing people at Market Samurai.
outt
Lol…..sorry Leo Dimilo I nearly choked on my coffee when I read your post from shock and laughter!
Paul Myers????…..Is that the same Paul Myers that moderates the Warrior Forum? The same Paul Myers that banned Jim Straw – a highly successful marketer that has made over $400 million online? The same Paul Myers that bullies and speaks to WF members like trash and will ban them if they complain? If it is, please name one thing he has done that’s positive, informative and actually works!
I think a quick Google search may enlighten you my friend.
Apologies for my forthrightness, I wouldn’t usually post a reply but I would hate anyone to follow that kind of advice. Like I stated a quick Google search for Warrior Forum and Paul Myers will reveal all – don’t take my word for it, or take a look at all the comments about injustices this guy has dished out in enormous portions here:
http://www.adhustler.com/banned-from-warrior-forum/#comments
Andrew,
Great post BTW, you may want to add Tiffany Dow to that list, she’s a great fan of yours
Hey Susan,
Appreciate the passionate response
I haven’t been in the WF for a long time so I can’t comment on Paul’s conduct. I’ve also never bought anything from him, or actually read his newsletter that so many people seem to love.
Tiffany Dow is definitely on my trust list. Maybe we should make a little section where everyone can contribute with their “people we trust” lists and we can all help each other avoid the crazy people online?
Andrew
Susan,
You know you have made it when you have your critics and Paul has his critics. But you can’t combine the warrior forum where he is a moderator and his personal business which happens to be his newsletter (or you could but that would be a disservice)….
From a learning perspective and newsletter perspective, his marketing model fits what most people would term “value”. Each newsletter is well thought out, has a good marketing lesson (which is something that most IMer’s forget to focus on in spite of the fact that it is probably the single most important factor of running a successful business) and one link that goes to something he is selling personally, which once again typically isn’t your run of the mill make a million dollars overnight rhetoric that repeats itself if you are on enough lists.
And to be even more fair, about it, chances are very good that you aren’t on his newsletter, have never read his newsletter, and don’t know a thing about him other than the fact that he moderates at the WF.
Now, I am not taking up for Paul personally. I am taking up for his newsletter. And regardless of the silly bans that come from the WF & allegations to censorship, unfair play and general shenanigans, I don’t know what to tell you. Their site, their rules. I imagine if I posted here something out of line, that my comment would be edited too…and understandably so….
Andrew,
Thanks for your thoughts. I know exactly which group you are refering to when you discussed the sleeze bags. They are great sales people who can write copy, therefore they make lots of sales. I have purchased and returned several of their products. It seems as though they want to overwhelm clients so that they will have to buy the next product they sell also…
This group is not good for newbies at all in my opinion.
I used to subscribe to every guru that crossed my path. But after awhile all I could see was constant promotion of their JV partners and their latest end-all be-all program to internet riches.
Now I’m down to about 3 gurus who promote content instead of pitches.
Hi David,
Which 3 do you subscribe to?
Regards
Greg
Hi Andrew,
People keep looking for that magic pill as the solution to their internet business. There isn’t one. Efficient sweat equity is the answer to building a solid internet business. Sure, the process is slow but you have to be in it for the long haul.
Find out how you can offer real value to your target customers and stop listening to these Gurus.
I am so glad that you have the balls to say exactly what is going on behind the scene’s
I’m not so new to this world of internet marketing and figured that al those so called “guru’s” who mail me every single day about the latest launch are not interested in building a bridge between myself and them so they can help in the make some money online but only interested in sucking as much out of their list as they can. The current affiliatedotcom crew included.
I’ve started to unsubscribe to anyone who doesn’t offer great value now and as you can tell, I’m still on your list as that is something that you continue to do. I’ll continue to build y business model on the likes of Tiff Dow and yourself. Keep up the great work, keep sharing the good stuff and you’ll keep seeing success and always be able to hold your head up high. I hope one day to be able to have the success that you enjoy knowing that I did it the right way with integrity and lifting those people around me up, rather than bringing them down…
Nice post Andrew. i got to Yaro a few years ago in Oz – He was reltively unknown. We talked a lot of freedom and basically the reason for internet marketing, not the money.
We got on great and he contributed to my first product doing an hour long interview.
yes- there will be always big names with a lot of power, but they will have a large churn on the lists, while others (like yourself) will build smaller, more responsive lists, aimed at providing value.
At the in end of the Day i know when I mail to my list ( http://www.InternetMarketingNZ.com/ ) I try to provide as much value as I can and only promote products I use. I know I will always sleep well at night
Paul
Umm…aren’t we talking about marketing here? Isn’t the point to actually SELL not make friends? Perhaps that’s why those guys make all the money. They actually get it.
Hi Andrew,
Thank God there are those of us who actually play this game with integrity. We are few and far in between and yes, it is a lot harder but as you mentioned, we do retain our integrity.
Have you ever felt the overwhelming urge to take the reigns of IM and redirect it to a place far more noble? A place where newbies don’t have to be scammed? A place that is transparent, honest, upfront and real?
I know I have.
Cheers,
-Johnson.
Hi Andrew,
I have chatted to you before although you probably dont remember. I have always taken a lot of comfort from the fact that there are people like you, Travis and Potpiegirl who do actually add value whilst going about your business.
I always knew that there was a dark side to this business, but you have really given me the jitters with this post. I suppose the nature of the internet lends itself to the formation of these “MAFIA” groups. It is a pitty because that is exactly why so many wide eyed newbies fail online. This is naturally exactly what they want (suck them dry, hope they leave so there is more for us mindset). To be honest the only reason I am still here is because I am stubborn and simply have to start earning somehting online. Thanks again for your post.
Hey man,
Thanks so much for the kind shout out. Loved your description of my fancy-pants private club, too funny! Definitely lots of great posing and people watching to be done there. I had such a wonderful time hanging out with you guys, was my pleasure.
I think the thing to remember, no matter what biz you’re in, is to lead with a giving hand, not a taking hand.
Business is fundamentally about serving and solving.
Do that better than anyone else and it’s game over.
All the other stuff falls into place.
Thanks for the update Andrew!
I read an article written by Aaron Wall (SEO Book), commenting on Perpetual Traffic by Ryan Deiss, and therein provided a link to a post on Dobberman Dan’s blog.
Well, I’ve been following both of them, Aaron and Dan, for quite a while now and I can’t agree more with them.
About the ‘trust’ list you mention in the post, well, Ryan Healy did come up with such list last year and it was fantastic!
There are names there that you wouldn’t believe are actual ‘con-man’, which you would just gobbled up their product at will…
Enlightening, to say the least.
But if you want a quick insight, I recommend ‘Salty Droids’ — beep, beep. Somehow, no stone is left unturned there.
For me, I think I was blessed to have folks like Grizz of ‘makemoneyforbeginners’ blog and Marlon Sanders to point the way…
These folks are ‘old-school’ but hey, OLD is GOLD!
Good post Andrew, hope some newbies read it. There are some very good, ethical marketers out there, and there are a whole lot of scumbags, too. I never used to ask for refunds, but in the last year or so I finally decided that I refuse to pay money for the same old rehashed information. Nothing new or special about the product, I ask for a refund and delete the product. By the way, I have never had to ask you for a refund. Haven’t asked Jimmy D. Brown, Tony Shepherd or Marlon Sanders for a refund, either. Doesn’t mean these are the only good guys out there — but you and these three definitely are good guys. Keep it up!
Pretty good post, but what you described is not just this industry. It is just how the world is. It’s not just IM, it’s all business and all business men and women, and it’s not really just business — it’s just humanity and reality in general.
Most are just out for themselves and to heck with anyone who gets in the way, but there are always the diamonds and roses, too.
Though it was said in a different context (if it was ever actually said at all) I think the version of Sturgeon’s Law and Corollary I originally became acquainted with says it fairly well, “Ninety-five percent of everything is crap and that includes people, but the five percent makes it all worthwhile.”
Hi Andrew,
When you getting back to the land of Oz?
Thanks for the frank report on what REALLY happens behind closed doors.
Keep up the great work Andrew and enjoy your life.
Ian
Hi Andrew et alia,
Interesting post. As a few people have said (including Ned Kelly): “Such is Life”. As Kay said, marketing is about making money, and David Ogilvy and the other “madmen” did just that; and it is a popular focus.
There is an even older saying, “caveat emptor”. The people who keep making these “gurus” so wealthy, are those who are so eager to throw their money at them, in the blind belief (hope?) that they are buying the winning ticket to riches – a no effort downpayment – or they hope some of that success and riches will somehow rub off on them. The greedy and lazy make these “gurus” wealthy.
However as there are always 2 sides to every coin, it is not the acquiring of riches that is the issue, It really comes down to; are you happy with how you are conducting your life. Are you happy with yourself when you look in the mirror each day?.For some this is never a problem. It is not a value judgement. it is how you see yourself in the world, and what personal values you want to operate from.
Was it PT Barnum who said:”there is a sucker born every minute”? Slightly off-topic, but just look at the “Nigerian scams”. People are still getting suckered in by them. Firstly, they have been around for at least 15 years, so everyone MUST have heard of them by now; and secondly, even if you had not, surely they can only be seen – on 1st glance, and at face-value – as a con. Yet there are not only people still falling for it, they even fly to Nigeria to ‘fulfil their dreams’!
It is a case of trying to save people from themselves. Still I understand your viewpoint. I really appreciated – and made notes – from a recent post of yours. “Make money online…. but what for?”
if you agree with what Jonathan Fields says.”Business is fundamentally about serving and solving”; then in doing that you will be successful AND at peace – with yourself, and the world.
The idea of a trust list could still be very useful. I would be interested to know to which 3 lists you still subscribe, Brian Johnson?
Ultimately, like anything in life, once people find what is truly essential in their lives. What it is that is truly valuable in the long-term, then they will be far less likely to chase after the newest ‘shiny objects’. They are for children.
In looking for some info about DJK, I found these 2 quotes The 1st is appropriate here. The other …….?
“But Hype sells. Notice that sales letters for these types of hypes are artfully drafted to appeal to everyone who’s having difficulties making money online, but voila, here is the solution to all of you financial problems. Amazing. yet, people buy into these things.”
And here is another where you get an endorsement
“Adwords miracle is the only product from Chris [Day Job Killer] that I like….
For a long lasting passive income, Andrew has release the Niche Marketing On Crack method that is suppose to be the holy grail in this area
I have use them and will swear by these authors’ products..”
Regards
Greg
There are genuine and humble internet marketers but i think only 3% of them exist in IM world.The rest is snake oil peddler who sells their scam products or their so called underground marketing technique.