IM Has A Cancer & I Need Your Help

Again, it’s not really with joy that I write this post. I feel like this is all I’ve been talking about lately, but at the same time, I can’t bear to NOT write this. I can’t bear to NOT let you know.

I went out to the World Internet Summit in London yesterday, an IM event that is pretty much bottom of the barrel in terms of pitchy-ness. There’s no content, it’s a high pressure sales environment that preys on people who simply don’t know better yet.

But I wanted to catch up with a friend and hopefully meet some more half decent marketers in London.

There’s 2 groups of people there: The newbies waiting to be sold their hopes and dreams on a platter for $2000 (2000 Pounds actually at this one… more like $3300 or thereabouts) a pop, and then the speakers & their friends, there to meet JVs and talk about how much money they make from ripping off those newbies.

I go to events alot, just to meet interesting people and sometimes learn. But the ones I’d been to more recently were a lot more content based and had a lot more experienced crowds. I quickly got jolted back to what these things were like in IM, and in many ways, what it’s like for someone new to online marketing to be trying to start up from scratch.

I spend most of my time at the bar, which is where the latter of the two groups of people in attendance hang out. I don’t want to listen to the pitches so that’s the only other option.

The conversations you here there are just grotesque.

(All of the following are based on ones I overheard yesterday)

“He gets up, speaks for an hour, sells the crowd a set of 7 PLR sites for $2000… walks away with $100k”

“Hahaha, you wouldn’t believe it, in Malaysia he had a guy during his pitch TRIP OVER running to the back of the room to sign up for his course, hahaha – brilliant!”

“Well we know why he launched it – they knew it wouldn’t work anymore in 3 months time. This way he can add another 100k a month to his business and be done with it”.

And much more…

I put them in the same group: The “speak from stage is all I do” marketers and the “product launches are all I do marketers”. There’s often a revolving door between the two groups. They are both equally as douchey.

Here’s the worst, scariest thing I heard.

Two guys were talking about a clickbank launch that had just happened. They were talking about how much the product sucked. The launcher was someone you’ve definitely heard of.

One guy asked the other guy to tell me how many sales the launch did.

The answer? 40 000 copies………………………………………………

Think about that number for a second.

To put it in perspective: I’ve been online for quite a while, doing both affiliate marketing and teaching. When I release a new product I’m happy if I sell 500 copies. They do 40 000! 80 times more than me.

If you’re reading this post you’re probably one of the people who are less likely to buy the overhyped clickbank launch type products…

If you’re like me, you probably think that those products are only for those unfortunate newbie souls who are just coming online and getting the inevitable fleecing before they realize how the game works…

BUT NO… no no… it’s not just a small group of newbies who buy this crap. It’s not just a minority of those getting started. It’s MOST people. It’s the MAJORITY. If you’re not in that group and you’re reading this post and you know better… you are in a TINY tiny sub sect. You’re one of the lucky ones!

The guys who do these launches and are the most unethical… make the most money. No one I mentioned on my list of “the wisest and most trustworthy marketers” do anything like the figures these guys do. That pisses me off but I guess that’s life.

Everything I’m about to write here I already knew, but the day that was yesterday just crystalized it in my mind and even took my understanding to a new level of depth regarding how dodgy and disgusting this IM world can really be.

The majority of product launches, ESPECIALLY Clickbank launches, where-ever you see extreme Clickbank screenshots, whenever you get more than 5 emails about the same product (with a rare few exceptions) the following is almost always the case:

1. The “System” they’re selling does not work.

Period. What they do is sit around mastermind meetings thinking of one question: “What would sell?” They think of ideas for things that those poor unfortunate souls would buy and they create products based on them. If there was a list of things needed for a good launch, laid out in priority order, the factor of whether a system works… whether anyone’s actually going to make money from it… would be at the bottom. Great sales copy at the top, bunch of JVs next, perfect upsell third… good product? Who gives a ####. As long as it’s good enough that we don’t get too many refunds, it’s fine.

This is the RULE, not the exception.

2. The “System” they’re selling, is not something they even use.

Doesn’t matter what the income screenshots say, they DON’T use it. They couldn’t use it even if it did work and even if they wanted to use it. Their entire lives are consumed by doing product launches and promoting other people’s junk so they’ll get more JVs when their launch comes around. They say they use it, and they show the income screenshots from their last launch. They DON’T use it.

3. The $67 product never contains the “secret”.

This is what these guys get taught (I’ve heard it being presented myself)

“You have a front end product, $67 or $77, but you don’t give away all the details in here! You don’t teach them all the secrets for $67 – don’t undervalue your products like that! Your front end product is supposed to be a teaser. Your $67 product is supposed to give them just enough so they understand the idea, but can’t apply it without further help”.

I’m not even kidding, I’ve heard those words being spoken from stage. So if you’re looking at one of those clickbank courses where the sales letter says you’re going to learn EVERYTHING… ALL THE SECRETS… for just $67… it’s NEVER true. There’s always an upsell you need in order to implement anything.

4. They work on the principle that most people who buy these products won’t use them.

Will the customer actually be able to make money? Who cares?

I told one guy yesterday that I have a customer support manager for our products (this was the 40 000 copies launch guy) and he was shocked. I told him we have a live support system and he couldn’t believe it.

These guys don’t care whether people implement their methods or not. Once the sale is made it’s “what can I launch next?”.

Ok guys, here’s the deal.

I’ve been writing about this stuff for quite some time and I can’t handle having this be ALL I do about it.

I need your help today.

We have to make some contribution to cutting down the number of people in that early part of their journey who don’t know that this is how things work yet.

This is what you can do.

1. Stop buying this stuff: Please, make a commitment right now that you will stop buying, or at least be EXTREMELY skeptical before you buy any clickbank IM product that shows clickbank screenshots and has a massive launch fanfare. You know they are all the same and there’s no point wasting your money. The above is how those products come about and you don’t need to be involved in that.

2. Tell someone you know: Do you know someone in IM who’s newer than you, just getting started maybe? Send them an email right now and tell them to be careful. Tell them to stop buying these products too.

3. Tell everyone you can: Do you have a blog? A Twitter or Facebook where you are in contact with other marketers particularly newer ones? Make one tweet or update about this. Tell people that they need to know about it.

4. I’ve never asked for something like this before, and I probably never will again, but if you have a blog or a Twitter or Facebook and you can’t do any of the above, send people the link to this blog post to read for themselves. Every person who hears this news and takes it on board is someone who saves themselves $67 or $197 dollars next time. Every person who hears this is another $67 that those bottom feeder launch guru scumbags don’t get.

We can help people here. We won’t change how this industry works, but we can do something.

Until next time, thanks for reading and…

Thanks for being my subscriber even though I’ve never shown you a clickbank screenshot. 🙂


  1. Jim Lodwig says

    Everything Andrew says is TRUE and then some.

    One of the last IM events I went to was right here in Las Vegas where I live. Can’t remember how long it’s been..maybe 4 years but the reason it was one of the last was because I witnessed nearly the exact same conversations as Andres did and it “turned my stomach.”

    At that time one of the major players had released and launched an actual book that sold very well. After his “pitch” and shortly before the next break I witnessed he, and all those gathered around him, talk as if those in attending were nothing but meat to be eating alive.

    As Mr Guru talked about the “dead beat” crowd to the other Guru’s I asked him about his book and if he thought it would have a negative or poor affect on those having success with the methods or render it less effective. He said “WHAT DO I CARE!”

    So YES Andrew you struck a nerve today as I read your post. Unfortunately this stuff’s been going on since Biz Opps and sales pages were printed in black and white on paper.

    The problem is it’s become more difficult now to tell who really cares about helping others to become successful from those who don’t.

  2. says

    Andrew, superb post I have to say. I have been burnt in the early days of my Affiliate marketing career as we all have. I still buy products now but I am also a serial ‘refunder’! If its crap, it goes back!

    Our own business does not sell in the ‘IM’ niche, we concentrate on selling ‘real products to ‘real’ people and most of the stuff we buy is higher end SEO and traffic course, and we still get burned from time to time.

    The challenge is, if we don’t start somewhere we never learn anything. My rule when in a seminar is always never buy on the day unless I know the guy and have used his stuff before AND it is applicable to what I am doing right now.

    Pretty much works because the good guys will always sell to you later and the bad guys stuff seems to smell a bit 24 hours later!

    Cheers, Ian

  3. says

    Truly eye opening stuff and it’s great to see someone tell it like it is! I don’t twit, book, linkin, etc., but I feel sooo strongly about this topic that my new mission for this week is to Digg, Stumble, Reddit, Mr. Wong, Ping this site, add the link to this post to my Google profile and anything else I can think of to help you get this information in front of those that really need it!

    My hats off to you sir,


  4. says

    Hi Andrew,

    I have followed you for quite a while, since Niche Marketing On Crack (in spite of the name). I share your disgust, and I imagine sadness, at the state of IM, and personally I would like to do something about it. But what?

    I propose a solution – go to war with the sharks and hit them where it hurts, in the wallet. Put up a Forum blog that names names, times, and list all the scams they have run and the crap products they have sold.

    Start with ChrisX (aka Chris McNeeley), since he is the mastermind behind the sytematic set of lies and deception tactics known as AffiliateX. Then move on to Alex Goad and his other disciples.

    I got so mad at Alex once (Google Conquest) that I was headed to Canada to look him up – but he decided to refund my money. I know you were part of that, but I choose to think you did not understand what Alex was really about at that point.

    Then expand the list of main scammers, and start including their life support, the big shot JV Gurus like Casey, Beckker, and all the other JV bloodsuckers that sustain the product scammers, knowing how much the product really sucks.

    How are you with Alex Goad these days? Are you afraid to cross these guys?

    If you are really into actually doing something about this sorry mess – I’m in. If not, keep writing and I’ll keep reading – for a while.


    • says

      I’m just about to undertake some training with some UK marketers and reading the above I don’t know if the comments are referring to them or not. Can anyone please tell me if Alex Jeffreys, Dean Holland and Lee McIntyre some of the good guys?


    • Jan says

      Interesting, I’ve been following Andrew since I bought into Niche Empire Generator. I wasn’t impressed and would have added him to the list. I’m still not completely convinced, so he’s on my maybe list.

  5. says

    @ Rajiv & Mark

    I charge about $150 per hour for personal support. I am unfamiliar with the support issues of Auto Content Cash. However, being a product owner myself, I some times get frustrated that people want “personal coaching” or “more advice” than what is offered in a $77 video tutorial course. I was thinking of putting disclaimers on my salespages about it. I understand resolving customers technical issues (they can’t watch the videos, or a download problem, etc), but paying $77 and then wanting personal coaching with it is bizarre to me.

    This is another blog topic. Perhaps I will write about that.

    ps. This has nothing to do with the Auto Content situation (it may apply), but a take on one of my own frustrations. Thought I’d throw that out there.

  6. says

    Andrew, I want to thank you for this post and say that I am going to tell everyone I know and hopefully those I don’t know yet. About a month after I began looking for a way to make money online I came across an eBook that opened my eyes to the very things you have pointed out here. Your post though goes into greater detail than the eBook I found.

    This is actually my first time visiting your blog but I must say it is by far the best read I have had in a long time. I hope you keep it up and I look forward to reading more.


  7. rick says

    I hope this comment makes it way through because I have a totally different view on this from what I’ve read. Let me begin by saying that the marketers in which Andrew refers to did not create the opportunity but they did seize it. Hopefully this will become abundantly clear by the time I finish.

    Let me say that I’ve read Andrew’s blog post and many of the comments. I didn’t read them all because I got tired of hearing all of the whining. After you’ve gotten enough bruises you will eventually learn what you are supposed to learn. It’s good to pay the cost with your wallet as this is one of the quickest ways to learn. I’ve paid by investing in a lot of worthless products but I don’t whine, I just learn and go on. Cream always rises to the top.

    I’m on quite a few email lists and most of marketers are constantly pitching new products or courses for me to buy. Of all the marketers who’s email list I am on there is only one who has not pitched me to buy new products.

    In fact, one of Andrew’s courses that I bought says “What you have access to here is the potential to create a business that will set you free for life; a business that will change not only your financial world but the way you perceive and operate in the rest of your life as well. What’s at stake here is your level of fulfillment, achievement and happiness forever.”

    Now if the following were true why would I ever need to buy another one of Andrew’s courses? Why would he ever need to market another course to me? Is he really interested in me taking and implementing the course that he sold me? Is he more concerned in getting sales regardless of whether his customers implement the actions suggested in the last course he sold them?

    Well, since I haven’t talked to Andrew personally I don’t know the answers to those questions but he does. I do not that I have received many more offers from him to buy more products.

    So don’t get upset with other marketers who beat you at your own game. You may say that you are different but I don’t see that as the case you are just playing on a much smaller game.

    Andrew, how do I know that your motives are sincere? I don’t and I can never know for sure. What if everyone retweets or publishes this content on their blog. You get more backlinks to your site, newbies see you as a credible and trustworthy marketer and you at some time will be able to promote some of your stuff to them of which they probably won’t do anything with.

    I believe your energy is directed along the wrong path. Why? Because what you resist persists. You’re time would be better spent educating people why there is no easy path to success. As long a people are conditioned to look for the quick fix, the easy path and approach Internet marketing with desperation there will always be marketers to serve it up just like they want it

    Why do you think we’ve had a war on drugs for so long now? Because it’s ineffective. Why to you think we have a national diabetes day? Because people are unwilling to change their habits. Why do you think that so many of the so-called unscrupulous marketers pop up all over the place? Because there are people out there hoping that they can change what has taken them a lifetime to create – overnight.

    Now let me go through some of the comments made by others….
    JW Ginn said….”there’s sickness in Internet Marketing” – There’s no sickness in IM. Internet Marketing is just that IM. It’s the people in IM that give it a bad name and cause people to be suspect. Rarely do IM (any of them) tell you the truth and nothing but the truth. They tell you half truths.

    Self Defence Products said..”IM Guru scum bags exploit the desperate and Newbie” – No the desperate newbies exploit themselves but thinking they can push a button and money will come rolling into their bank account.

    Kevin Baker said…”The lessons learned have made me stronger, wiser and yes Poorer for the privilege” To me this is what its all about. You get stronger and you don’t give up. No one system is going to work for everyone. All most marketers ever talk about is making a lot of money because they know this is what pushes those emotional buttons. When’s the last time you received an promotion encouraging you to create tons of value for others? It’s all about making lots of money which very few people who get into IM ever do.

    Jayne says “ We can only hope that what goes around comes around. You don’t have to hope because it will. What you do to another you are doing to yourself. The Universe is the ultimate equalizer.

    Rajiv said, Alex Goad is one such scammer and you should not be promoting his latest JV launch! As a paid member of his Auto Content Cash I can tell you he and Brian Johnson are out there to scam and rip people off.
    Yes Brian’s Halloween Superaffiliate was promoted by many and ditto for every crap Alex Goad puts out. I couldn’t agree more and I bought both of those courses. As I’ve stated before most marketers do it but rarely do people call them out.

    I could go on an on and this would be a 3,000 word comment but I’m sure the ones that his message was intended for will get what I’m trying to say. Let he who doesn’t live in a glass house cast the first stone.

    • says

      Hey Rick,

      I think for the most part we’re in agreement.

      How can you trust me? How do you know my motives are genuine? You don’t. You can’t.

      All I can hope for is that when I sell my products, people will get the value out of them that I say they will. That I will deliver what I promise for a price that’s reasonable. That I will tell the truth in my marketing material. All I can do is try to sell my products with some level of respect for the people buying them, and maybe just a little care for their individual outcome. Of course as you note, I’m not (nor is any seller) “responsible” for my customers outcomes – there will be no success on any method without the user’s basic personal responsibility – but you don’t have to be “responsible” to be “aware”.

      Because, as I think you imply, it’s not IM that is the problem. It’s not selling “how to make money” products that’s the problem. It’s not that one guy does a launch and sells 40 000 copies that’s the problem.

      It’s HOW he sells them that’s what matters. What matters to me anyway. It’s the HOW that separates the good guys from the bad in my view.

      There’s no rule that says you can’t do an enormous launch and sell a tonne of product WHILE treating your customers with respect, WHILE providing them real value, WITHOUT lying in your sales copy, WHILE showing people a method that IS actually proven to work. Is there?

      I know what you’re saying Rick, and I respect your courage in leaving a comment that goes against the grain, at least the grain of the other commenters. I’d love to hear your thoughts.


      • rick says


        I appreciate your response to my message and even for allowing it to get through. I believe the things we notice in life are the things that we ourselves most need to improve on. Perhaps you were privy to those conversations because it would help you to more closely evaluate how you market and promote products online.

        I must think highly of you or else I would unsubscribe to your list. I know what it feels like to be one of those individuals who feel like they’ve been taken advantage of. However, even though it has happen to me I do not feel like a victim and I take full responsibility for the part that I played in the entire transaction. I’m bigger and better for having had those experiences. Did I lose money? Yes I did. Did I lose time? Yes I did. However, I know that being successful on line is very possible because I’ve witnessed those who are not as intelligent as I am wildly succeed.

        What you talk about is much bigger than IM or IM marketers. People are so desperate these days to make money. People are so desperate to earn a quick buck without putting in the work. If anyone has ever read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell you will know what I’m talking about. Until I have invested a minimum of 10,000 hours I don’t expect to be a super affiliate. It may happen but I’m not depending on it because I haven’t paid my dues. I’ve only been in the game so to speak for about a year.

        When individuals resolve to look inside of themselves and to understand that it takes work to be successful both online and offline. You can run around if that is your desire trying to warn people be there will be more to pop up somewhere else? Are you going to be there to save them when they have in their minds made up to look for something fast and easy? It’s an impossible task. Perhaps your thinking is if I am able to save one person then it will be worth it. However, you miss the most important thing in teaching people how to think for themselves, which is something people who work on job typically relinquish to someone else.

        Until the desires of people change the marketers that you mentioned in your post will continue to exist. When the desires of people change these types of marketers will cease to exist overnight.

        I started not to write this post because I felt that it would be unpopular but It something kept gnawing at me so I know I needed to write it.

        Thanks for allowing me the space to write this.


        • Ralph says

          Your Message
          I find your comments really interesting, you seem like a very intelligent person, but I have to disagree, you can greatly reduce the time it takes to succeed at anything my modeling success. That’s what this is all about, creating value, and passing on information that is useful. I agree that the main product here is making money, that’s what you type into the search engine. How to make money online? The problem is people fail to realize marketing is a skill. It’s a skill, that you learn over time. Unfortunately in the search for the overnight riches pill, we get lost. You are learning marketing the whole time it’s just in reverse. Let me explain, you see the squeeze page, you see the sales page, you see the emails, what you don’t see is the avenue that got their offer in front of you. ie, what they did to get their offer in front of you. As I stated before, there is a formula if you follow you will succeed. At the end of the day, whether a person succeeds is up to them. Are you committed to your success? Are you willing to liberate yourself from the self defeating beliefs we all have? Are you willing to grow as a person? You see as you grow your income will grow. Start looking at ways to create value, for other people. What is your dream? I’m not talking about the money, it’s what you want the money for, too many times people fail, because they don’t get to the real desire. They let other people create it for them or project their dreams on them. What would I do with a Lamborghini, nothing it looks good, but, that same money would be better spent on helping one of my nieces get through college. Now I can really get fired up to help someone else. I think that we are beginning to see a change, because I have been online for sometime, and this is the first time I’ve seen this type of forum. Each person that made a post here can start creating a new reality for newbies. Before you promote any product, ask yourself what value are you giving? Did you get anything from the product? Did you achieve the results, the product advertises? These are things that can be measured.

  8. says

    Right now, I feel blessed that I end up hanging around people like Grizzly Brears, Ben Settle and Marlon Sanders. These people do not promote the next best thing – just the proven ‘old school’ methods…

    And I am all ‘old school’ now…

  9. Wise Man says

    ahh,.. but the wise man would learn and observe how the “Scammers” sell 40k copies. I mean quality of whats in the box aside, they can sell 40k copies and you only 500. There must be something to learn here? no?

    So it goes that the smart man would combine the sales tactics that gets people in the door and then actually deliver on the promises of a quality product?

    this would put you HEAD and HEELS above both the “Scammers” and the “do-gooders” who still are paying off a mortgage into the realm of superhero….

  10. Steven Van Schooten says

    The man who sees clearly through smoke is rare.
    The man who speaks out against injustice is respected.
    Thanks for showing others “They can To”!

  11. says

    Hello Andrew
    GOOD post! I have often wondered about these things – it took me 3 months to pluck up “courage” to click a link I had found, thinking it was “just another one”!! Luckily this guy, Chris Farrell, has turned out to be an excellent tutor / mentor, one of the best I would suggest!!

    But your warning IS so timely when more and more people are going to be looking into the Internet to build an income in trying times that could be ahead.

    GREAT post!

    Thanks Andrew


  12. Fidelis says

    Thanks Andrew. Good to read from guys like you. I thought I was missing something but now I pretty sure.
    These “Launch Gurus” hardly give any support of link to get in touch with them for more details on their products or those they promote. All one get are “Go Now ==>” links to pages that say nothing about the product but just “PROOF” of income and how they spend it.
    Just beginning to think that newbies (me included) are doomed. I Haven’t been a victim yet and will be more careful where where I place my last coins. IM is vast, but I just want something that works. Any suggestion on where to start?
    Thanks again for sharing.

  13. says

    Hi Andrew

    The worst thing is that they all follow the same formula, a blind sales letter that tells with the same persuaive copy, and then a confusing miriad of upsells that you think will help you, but actually suck more cash and confuse you.

    The worst example for the autotrafficavalance, it was a complete misnomer, nothing automated! All it did was teach you how to cheat the facebook system and get your adverts onto the network. It opened my eyes to how these guys do their marketing, and how easy it is for them to make such massive numbers.

    It’s like when adwords first came out and every search term at $0.01 per click turned up an advert for some scam. What we need is a good facebook slap and the other networks to stop allowing anything that sells with blind salescopy or uses screenshots in the salespage.

    Overall I think the tide is turning and more marketers with lists are realising that shit sticks, and if you refer someone to a scumbag that you are in turn called a scumbag.

    Anyway glad I found this blog, following you twitter now, so hopefully I’ll find your content before having to read through > 100 comments to tell you I agree.


  14. Mr Gray says

    Hi Everybody, I need your help. On my hard drive is a little text file called ‘Those Not to Trust’. Could you folk tell me if I am doing anybody an injustice?

    Here’s the list.

    Alex Goad
    Amish Shah
    Andy Jenkins
    Anik Singal
    Armand Morin
    Bill Mcrea
    Brendon Burchard
    Brian Horn
    Chris Freville
    Chris Zavadowski
    Eben Pagan
    Ed Dale
    Eric Graham
    Emil Paz
    Ewen Chia
    Frank Kern
    Gary Ambrose
    Gauher Chaundry
    Jeff Johnson
    Jeff Schwerdt
    Jeff Vacek
    Jeffrey Wyrick
    Joe Cooper
    Joel Peterson
    John Reese
    Jonathan Mizel
    Jonathan Van Clute
    Jordan Belfort
    Jose Rivera
    Josh Schoenly
    Kate Buck
    Keith Baxter
    Leslie Rhode
    Lewis Howes
    Luke Jaten
    Marc Hardgrove
    Michael Rasmussen
    Mike Filsaime
    Mike Long
    Murtaza Yousuf
    Perry Belcher
    Perry Lawrence
    Ross Goldberg
    Ryan Ringold
    Sean Malarkey
    Skip McGrath
    Stephen Pierce
    Sweah Tieng Tan
    Tim Castleman
    Trey Smith
    Yanik Silver
    Zach Booker

    • says

      Hey mate,

      That’s a pretty comprehensive list!

      I think a better idea is a “who you CAN trust list” – you might want to check out the “honest marketers” post I made a few days ago where many commenters discussed who it is that they personally trust in IM.


      • says

        As I was reading down the comments it began to occur to me that what was required was not necessarily a libelous and potentially hazardous list of alleged scammers, but simply a list of recommended people and products. There are so many marketers out there and they aren’t all crooks. Simply list the recommended ones. Any potential victim of the scammers can pretty soon work out that if the person promoting the latest greatest product is not on the recommended list, or is not being promoted by people on the recommended list, then chances are there is a reason why they aren’t there!

        And then I got to here and saw that you had already had the same thought!!

        So why not have a moderated list of people and products, maybe even allowing a poll against both so that a quick glance could maybe establish that a given marketer has plenty of great “feedback” whilst another may not have as much. Just like the ebay feedback system for satsified customers?

        So – no potentially libelous comments just a deafening silence!

        What do you say?


      • Ralph says

        Your Message
        It’s the same thing a MLM, these people play on the desire that some people have to better their lives. Somehow we think that creating wealth is some magic trick. There is no magic course that will transform your life in 30 days. About 1 month ago, I met a gentlemen named Terry, we had a brief conversation about this same subject. I told him I was new to IM, and didn’t where to start. He recommended that I join Chris Farrell’s membership site, to learn how to build website’s and drive traffic, He then recommended Dan Brock, I can say without a doubt what I have learn is the absolute truth, and the results speak for themselves. Dan in turn recommended Andrew Hansen. It all started with one honest guy recommending another honest guy. They all tell you upfront this is not get rich quick. There is a process involved. 1. Education 2. Understanding 3. Implementation, These people are making a difference and helping people succeed. Oh I forgot Jan Roos, straight forward honest guy. Class acts, all of them.

    • Nat says

      Wow, you must have spent some time putting that list together. Was it really worth it?

      Seems to me you’d be better off just removing yourself from their lists so you don’t have to reference a text file to remind yourself who to trust 😉

  15. says

    Hi Andrew,

    Your comments are timely and your opinions are undoubtedly shared by many.

    Interesting to see how many sales letters today start off by saying “Are you sick of being ripped off……etc”

    The cancer, knows it’s a cancer….


  16. says

    Hi Andrew

    A fantastic post you have here and real eye-opener for me – I am a fellow newbie who have been around the I.M Circuit running for the past few years trying to make it from newbie to full time Internet Marketer. I have never been to a Live event and it’s great to actually hear what really goes on at these event of which I have always been skeptical off.

    With regards to selling how many copies per launch – I personally don’t think that it really top priority. Sure you want to sell some copies to cover you launch, pay overheads, to actually make some profit, something to show for the crazy amount of hours you spent creating, developing and marketing it etc…

    However nothing will beat the satisfaction of seeing a smiling face, knowing that you have helped someone take action and acheive their dreams, or helping them achieve financial independence, freedom, and them thanking you for helping them. I think that what really matters.

    More importantly, don’t these unethical rip-off prey on newbie marketers have any humane conscience at all? How do they sleep at night, or are they vultures in disguise and prey on newbies during the night and sleep in the morning?

    I just hope they don’t ruin the industry for the rest of us i.e. honest marketers who are trying to genuinely help others and offer genuine products/services.

    Anyway, thank you for your post again – will spread the message out

    Best Regards

  17. says

    Your post is spot on.
    There are so many hyped product launches weekly that do nothing but rip people off. Couple of weeks of frantic advertising and then they disappear.


  18. JL says

    You’ve all made some insightful posts! And some of you just don’t get it…

    It’s nice to see a few people make comments that don’t have “innocent victim syndrome.” No one can force you to buy

    anything. You can however, be nudged and influenced, and copywriters like me count on that. So here’s a commentary from

    someone that wields Thor’s hammer… and is very proud of it.

    At your discretion, any of you can opt-out of any email list or ezine you like- any time you want. However, to point your finger

    at a copywriter or marketer is misplaced aggression. Many of you need to be looking in a mirror when you point your fingers.

    That is the time when you are staring-down the real culprit. If you don’t have the funds to spend… don’t. Your money is not

    needed and there will be many people that really do make money, solve problems, or get well with what is being offered.

    Study your buying habits and, when looking at any offers, analyze them with pad and pen. Write down what is actually being

    offered to you and, on the facing page… what you’re going to do about it. Eliminate the “White Noise” that causes you to “act

    to buy” when you know you won’t “act to use” the product. Tragically, some won’t even open it. You know who you are.

    If you can’t write your expectations down for the product or service offered, sift through the hypnotic, convincing, titillating

    copy or quantify a result, then…

    DON’T buy it.

    This isn’t like we’re splitting atoms, but all of the victims would like to make it seem that way. As for serial refunders, that is a

    mindset that is in “pre-determined failure” mode- please don’t buy anything from my clients- or me. Some of the same

    products on your shelf, whether virtual or actual, are on mine. The whining stopped for me years ago. It’s a part of doing

    business on Planet Earth.

    Here’s a revelation… NOTHING in life is guaranteed you. Some of the readers of this may make a major breakthrough

    tomorrow- others may go to bed and awaken to live out another day- in drudgery.

    This is so stupidly simple- all you have to is: ignore me and what is written. If you read my client’s offer, you’re consenting to

    read my pitch. If you do that, the chances are you will want whatever is being offered. My skills and the results historically

    achieved tell me that this is a battle that will be won often by yours truly- you can count on me doing everything possible to

    separate you from your money.

    My clients are owed this commitment from me and it’s not personal, but they’ve paid me extremely well to do it.
    You aren’t sheep… or are you?

    Sales funnels have existed since people developed a way to filter everyone in- or out of- the sales process. Multiple opt-ins

    and pop-ups are part of life as we understand on the Internet now. The truth is something many of you won’t admit to… you

    envy many of the marketers that have… “Made it.”

    No, they aren’t lily white and innocent… but then all of you know that already. Some will also baffle you with screenshots and

    not have two nickels. Deep down… YOU KNOW ALL OF THIS ALREADY.
    Saying we don’t want to be sold to is like saying we’re going to disconnect from civilization. We will all turn in our PCs, cellular

    phones and other data devices because… there are people trying to sell us things.
    Gee, really…
    Come on… let’s get real. We actually would need to get off the web, turn our TVs off, not drive our cars or read any

    magazines and newspapers. After all, there are people trying to sell us stuff in/on there- on our way to the office- on TV, etc.
    Danger Will Robinson… Danger!
    Before we move on, let get the two words straight:

    Internet + Marketing

    What is Internet Marketing?

    This is important, so let’s make sure we all understand this… Is it a job, career, business, occupation, or Final Jeopardy


    …NONE of the above.

    My use of it is often incorrect. It is a process- a component used in our businesses… and that’s all it is.

    It is my submission that you cannot be in the Internet Marketing business. You can be in the business of using Internet

    marketing to sell your products. Internet Marketing is the process used by individuals and businesses in the activity of



    Internet is the venue and marketing is an activity also, but it’s not a career. We are all part of some kind of sales business. It

    matters little whether our offers are services or products. Our Internet marketing is a process used by all of our businesses to

    produce revenue as the result of generating sales of services or products.

    It is also not an entitlement… the fact is, that unless you are prepared to work your tail off, you probably won’t make much

    money. In fact, you’ll languish in obscure failure and poverty when you think this business doesn’t take more work than many

    other businesses do. No apologies- if that’s too… real.

    But, before we jump on all of the Internet salespeople we deal with, let’s make sure we all understand what it is that we really

    do. Let’s also not get holier than thou and think that sales is beneath us. We all do this and am thankful to have these powerful

    skills. Few people can provide any legitimacy to calling themselves sales professionals.

    Anyway, enough of this part of my ramblings- let’s switch channels now…

    Andrew has always had my admiration and many of you may not realize what he’s doing here. He has used a well-known

    technique and you’ve all been exposed to a tactic called: “inciting a riot.” It’s harmless to you, but has been implemented quite

    well by Andrew. The strategy is to write a provocative commentary about an inflammatory issue or condition- encourage or

    prod you to discuss it- then watch as you work for him through your posts.

    When done well, as Andrew has done it here, it’s a powerful tool and he’s smiling right now when looking at his site stats.

    He’s also giving everyone the appropriate elbow to the ribs to keep us going.

    It’ fiendishly effective, isn’t it?

    This is being brought into focus because of some of the remarks a few of you posted. You see, when you make reference to

    copywriters, your comments are addressing my vocation. It is humorous to see terms like: “expensive copywriter.” This is an

    oxymoron closely akin to you saying: “bad publicity.”

    When you refer to me as “expensive,” you patently don’t understand the how my work can profoundly impact your offers or

    outcomes. Any client of mine would tell you that they hardly consider me expensive. Their ROI from the work they receive can

    only be measured in light-years. They know that the arena is spectacularly slanted in their favor when they make me their


    There rarely is any such thing as “bad publicity” either. Those of you that truly understand the meaning of publicity should

    inform the others that “bad publicity” is often a “good” thing.

    Nonetheless, in actuality, the person some of you are really annoyed at is someone like me. None of my work is used in the IM

    world- yet all of you have been exposed to good copy written for many admittedly less-than-ethical marketers.

    My copy is used in other niches and you will find some less than squeaky-clean marketers there too. When you consider there

    is no “barrier-to-entry” for Internet businesses, you should expect this.

    But you need to know something…

    In the span of something that took me minutes to write- if you’ve read this far- you’ve been taken precisely where “I” wanted

    “you” to go. I didn’t use the word “I” once- until the preceding paragraph. I did use the most powerful word in any language-

    “You.” In this small space, I made this “personal” for you. This wasn’t about me; it was about “you.”

    “You” has been used in some variation 93-times and makes up slightly less than 6% of all the words. “I” was purposely unused

    until I chose to utilize it. If I were to continue, I could exacerbate your pain, cure your problem, boost your ego or solve your

    issue- or all of the above.

    I could induce you to click links, reach for your wallet or type your Paypal information. But, I’m on your side here- this isn’t

    adversarial- I’m just having fun. It is about you though- and, by reading this, “you” have allowed me to get- “personal.”

    This is what “I” do best… I sell stuff for people that don’t want to spend decades learning my skills or be a perpetual student.

    You can get the same edge using a copywriter of your choice.

    At a time when many have been adversely affected by an enormous global economic shift, my sales and revenue are up 206%

    over this time one-year ago. I am booked through the 27 weeks of 2011 and only have scant openings for any work for the

    balance of the year.

    Checks for prepayment of copy I haven’t even written yet have already begun landing in my mail box. No one wants me

    working for a competitor, which is a great feeling.

    Feel free to ridicule me and my work… others love me and can’t get enough. Gotta go- I’m at the bank… they love me here


    With great expectations for your success,

  19. francie says

    Good article.

    It is quite clear that virtually everyone involved in affiliate and internet marketing uses the guise of “friend and mentor” to suck you in with the premise that they have your best interest at heart. Once they have softened you up sufficiently they pounce to sell their products. One does not mind if it is a win, win situation and the product is indeed what you need to succeed, but that will be wishful tinking.

    Anyway, who can really expect some stranger who you meet online to really have your interest at heart. Everyone is trying to make a living. One can only hope that those who genuinely do try and help will reap the benefits in the long term.

    Here’s to the honest marketers out there !!!!

  20. says

    Great post Andrew!

    Although I’m a veteran marketer myself, but I still learned a lot from this post. My subscribers always asked me to write something about those scam artists and now I don’t need to! I’m broadcasting all of my subscribers for this post and I will also add it to my autoresponder follow up segments.

    Every newbie marketer should read this.

    Thank you!


  21. says

    Andrew, you’re on your way to becoming an I.M. Philosopher, too!

    See this blog post from 2008 🙂

    Good to see you take a stand. You’ve always lived that position yourself, and no one’s better qualified to send out such a passionate plea. Hopefully, your appeal will fall on more ears and invoke some change in thinking than have earlier attempts by many, myself included!

    Good on ya, mate! 😉

    All success

    P.S. – @Red – you said, “I am not with any of them but if I am one of them I will just write an ebook that lays out all the dirty tricks and just give it away.”

    I did – a few years back. It’s a report called “Dr.Mani and Mr.Snyde” – download pdf 🙂

  22. marketjazz says

    Hey, Andrew,
    CONGRATULATION, this your topic is really the best of the best in your blog!

    Here is my two cents:
    Now, as far as I know you, Andrew, are not alone talking very seriously about, just look at warriorforum or so on… Rumor is growing may be a bit too discretly but it can become a great tzunami!!!
    There even an amazing contest has been launched but folks seems too hesitant or may thinking that the big sharks with dogs will eat them alive, isn’t? LOL

    PLEASE never forget that the dogs barking, crows caw, but the caravan is still going !
    Excuse me for my engrish anyway…LOL+ get read some amazing books by Charles Handy from the Elefant with his Flea series – you will instantly feel yourself almost impeccable! SERIOUSLY! Just think about WHY you want(? or need?) to be the marionnettes?
    Why not to be be a simply “Flea” which can jump out easily ~300m away onto other big dog or whatever? LOL

    *NOTA BENE*:You do not need anyone’s permission to be successful !

    Personally I have never ever been a purchaser via CB or some other dotcom-ics e-product’s providers and I am extremelly cautious as an affiliate/publisher, too. I work (as an Flea, of course! LOL) with very few great experimented marketing maestros who I respect and the info provided can be applied instantly in any area of business…

    Here is really nothing to do with these so called “twelve emotionally disturbed big dogs” —
    I just launched a strictly limited 2011-2012 calendar with their portraits – with only twelve cartoons for our member-only, where our member has been the authors of… as well!
    It was most funny launch ever I participate personally! LOL

    Hey, Folks, just create your own funny “perpetuum mobile”in other dimension and level (just differenciate a bit yourself from these damn guys!) and you will find complet satisfaction which is not based at all on “green stufs” …;-)

    BTW, any online & offline business are the sames as they are complementary to each other cause a different media. Here is not any miraculous way to earn your life, just be passionate and curious action taker and you will get all you want.

    Finally, what are worth your “abandoned” kids and your family in general, and ask you mirror who is that unhappy *…* appearing there…

    CHEERS ans big Hugs!

  23. says

    Very well put-together post!
    It’s pretty horrid what’s going on behind the scenes of many, many IM “businesses” (read: scam-factories) and the more people are spreading the word about it, the better.

  24. Angela says

    Andrew we need more marketers like you. This is such a good and informative post. Unfortunately, this is the same thing that happens in other niches as well like real estate. It really comes down to using common sense which we all know is not common.

    One tactic I use when looking at any product is is to ask myself a couple of questions. Is this something I’m going to use right now to take me to the next level? Have I taken action on the last product I brought? Is there a particular section or area of interest they are speaking about that interests me. I make a note and research it later. I also Google most products before I buy it, while it’s hard to find an unbiased information, sometimes reading several things you can form your own intelligent confusion.

    I try to use us logic not emotion when buying things and like a lot of people it’s hard. But the more you practice it, the better you get it at. I also spend less time reading emails from people who only push products and don’t provide any content or anything useful. I think we have to remember we’re a valuable commodity to these people and once you stop buying their inferior products and unsubscribing from their lists we might actually start getting what we pay for.

    JL – you write an interesting comment and I agree with some of your points in particular that no one is forcing people to part with their money. However, what I think the general consensus is that we’d like the pitch to match the product. Is that to much to ask for? It’s just like buying a car, everything looks good and the pitch sounds great, but when you get it home it’s a lemon. I think you’d agreed eventually this will catch up to a person and can be permanently damaging to their business.

  25. says

    I’m with you Andrew, and support a stand – I’ve been unsubbing like crazy for a couple of months, but I’ve still got a long-long list to go through!! It took me 7 years to build – haha!
    I’ve only had a quick look through your list though and was surprised to see Ed Dale and Keith Baxter on there. I have found both to provide very useful material over the past couple of years – but I’ve not bought much from them so maybe I missed a classic example of your rant material!!
    Glad to see Shane Melaugh agrees, I really thought he must be a scammer when I first saw his name, but quickly changed my mind once i’d tried his material – thanks Shane, you really do make me smile!
    John O’York

  26. says

    Hi Andrew, I just came over from Randy Smiths blog as he included the link to this in his last post.

    My blog, The Newbies Guide, is all about helping people get started so this kind of post is very educating and one which i will share with my readers. Thank you very very much for being an honest stand up guy and showing us some of the true thoughts of these so called leaders.

    The list by Mr Grey is also an eye opener, more so as i’m on the lists of some of those mentioned. I am learning new things from some of them as in what not to do to my mailing list. I must say though that some of the names shocked me, but i’m very gratefull to Mr Grey for letting us know his thoughts.

    Great post Andrew, i’ll be sending my readers over to it very soon.
    Respect and Regards, Barry

  27. says

    Hi Andrew, unfortunately my views are this cancer has been around a long time and will always be around, even with marketing before the Internet- GREED is here to stay. Like you said we can’t change it- BUT WE CAN DO SOMETHING.

    All I got to say is if you (us) as a marketer follow sound marketing principles you will stand out in a good way from the rest of the bad. Good or bad you will stand out. You will be noticed.

    I ask any Marketer reading this- For the long term how do you want to stand out? For the long term how do you want to be noticed? In the end if you stink you will smell bad. In the end if you are honest you will have a good odor. What kind of odor do you want to give off?

    Terry Conti

  28. says

    Hi Andrew,

    Thanks for this post I am very skeptical of this kind of trickery a few years ago I asked a question to the author about his product and without a reply from him I thought yeah right I’m otta here and this guy is one of those big name gurus also so yes I am very skeptical and after reading this post maybe more so now.


  29. Joe says

    When I first landed on the post [and never been to your site before] I though this was just some IM marketing bull, kudos for a great post and one that I hope makes people, for one time, do NOT take action on this gooroo nonsense that is promoted online.

  30. says


    Andrew, I wrote a similar blog post the other day and my comments went ballistic too. John Thornhill did the same. So did Randy Smith and a few others.

    I’m just putting the finishing touches to a new no opt-in pdf report entitled: “How NOT to Be an Internet Marketing ZOMBIE.” That is sure to p155 off a LOT of the scammers out there. However, after seeing that you and so many others are “on the same page” with all of this I might edit it a little bit to reference your blog post here.

    Gary Simpson

    • says

      Hey Gary,

      I actually read your post and was about to leave a comment – nice work mate. We are the counter-current! Keep flying that flag!


      • says

        Oh, hi Andrew.

        I just came back to grab a few details and saw you had replied to me. I have now updated my pdf with a few snippets from here (with attribution, of course).

        Of all the excellent comments above (minus 1 – there always has to be a dissenter) Bet’s comment stuck out for me because it is so symptomatic of so many people just wanting to move ahead ethically and honestly with out all the hoop-la. Here it is:

        Bet said on November 15, 2010 at 4:37 am “Thanks for confirming my impression of internet marketing. They send you so much mail and phony information that you don’t know which end is up, let alone how to do this business. That is all we want to know. How to ethically earn money and impart information.” B

        Well said Bet! I have included that comment in my pdf.

        Andrew, if you shoot me an email I will send you the pdf. You will laugh your OO’s off at what I say about these ZOMBIES.



  31. says

    Hey Andrew,

    Great post! I was also at WIS the other week and was one of the bar proper uppers…. There were some very interesting conversations floating around all weekend! I’m surprised we didn’t bump into each other, unless we did and the alcohol had kicked in sufficiently for me not to remember anything!

    I was sent here from Gary Simpson’s latest post on this topic! It’s good to see that those of us that want to do things ethically are starting to make a stand, maybe someday soon we can get rid of all these ‘blackhat’ zombie marketers!

    Thanks again


    • says

      Haha, we sat talking for numerous minutes at the bar big guy! I was sittin right next to you – strapping Aussie gentleman? 😉 Shocking that I’m so forgettable haha!

      Good to see ya here and thanks for the comment!

  32. says

    Excellently thought out post. I too have witnessed ‘sucker’ conversations between these people, usually in the bar during the ‘conference’. I was too new to know who they were, but I’ve noticed one consistent problem. I see hundreds of blogs complaining about garbage products, but very very few actually name names. Even in your own post, you refer to an overheard conversation. Well – Who Were They?
    If I were in their shoes, I’d find these continued whinges laughable, because if there are no names, they have no teeth.
    I’m building my new review site as we speak. These are started with garbage products I’ve personally experienced plus some contributors, all of which name the product or villain behind it.
    To keep things in balance, I will also be recommending people I can trust, and would be morally confident to pass on to my newbie readers.
    One can only hope.
    Oh yeah, great blog. This Pom will be back.

  33. says

    Great post, this is the fourth post I have read today on this subject, Barry Wells, Randolf Smith, Gary Simpson all join you in this passion for truth and honesty.

    I was mentored for a brief period by a networking marketer who got me to find my why, which was to stop others from being lost online for 4 years as I have been, the networking marketer dropped me like a stone once he realised I was not going to join his downline!

    Having read yours and the other posts, I am now a bit more confident that I can make a difference by being me and following my why. I don’t trust people who lie to me, so why should I expect those that follow me to put up with this, time to burn some more guru guides.

  34. says

    As a fairly recent newbie I have purchased a few of these products and agree with you.through my little bit of experience. You get the peel when you purchase, but you pay dearly for the meat that you need.and even then there is still the main ingredient missing. I also have a problem. On Dec7/10 I purchased Elite Niche Research and the Firepow Program. I believe you have a great product, but cannot seem to get the help I need from your help or support dept. I do not see a phone number or a fax number where I can contact a real humane being. Check the Company records and maybe you or someone can get back to me and help solve my problem.
    Thank you: John

  35. D. says

    Hey Andrew,

    I am not sure now, but didn’t you do something with Alex Goad? The guy who is only responsible for the biggest launches in clickbank history, etc?

    The reason I’m asking is this:

    Did you get burned by Alex? Since you are pretty much telling people here not to trust him, along with guys like Rob Benwell and some others. That is what I clearly read in between the lines.

    Anyway… cool post.

  36. says

    Hi Andrew
    Totally have to agree with you, like others I’ve bought expensive rubbish products before “seeing the light”
    These days I search for reviews then go to the Warrior Forum to do more research, this has saved me ££££’s.
    It’s good to see hard working and honest marketeers like Randy Smith and Gary Simpson echoing and endorsing your words – hopefully with more guys like you, Gary and Randy more and more people will see the “crap for the trees”
    I also love to read the Saltydroid, his rants are very eye opening, although why he hasn’t yet been sued I’ll never know.
    Anyway, I’ll be more than happy to refer this post on my own blog.
    You certainly have my support, anything I can do to help, just ask.


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